i am Ekho Podcast: 006
Unmasking Pathological Liars with Gavin Stone
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Transcript:
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (00:00.16)
Understand that it's not you and it's not anything to do with you. It's the other person that you're in a relationship with. Is he going to continue to say, I threw myself into a wall and broke my own collarbone and gave myself a concussion?
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (00:18.414)
Welcome the I Am Ecko podcast. I am your host Ecko. And today we are going to explore pathological lying because as we know, not all people who lie are narcissists, but all narcissists lie. I have as my guest one of the top 10 body language experts in the world, Gavin Stone. He is also the author of several remarkable books to include How to Tell if Someone is Lying. Welcome to the show, Gavin. Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on.
Would you mind starting out by sharing a little bit about your background and your work? I worked in the intelligence industry for many, many years. That gave me little bit of an advantage working as an intelligence officer to be able to get close to human intelligence assets. And part of that was learning about body language, about deception detection, that kind of thing. Ultimately, when I left the industry, I started training other people into doing it.
doing the similar kind of work and that then it just evolved from there. It became a book that became a bestseller and I ended up inadvertently getting ranked ninth in the world body language expert amongst other things. So it's all kind of wasn't necessarily something I set out to achieve what happened as a byproduct. That's interesting. One thing we have in common is we both come from the intelligence community. I was a SIGINT-er, you were a human-er. You did human intelligence. I did signals intelligence.
intelligence. did work for the NSA for quite a few years. So that is one thing we have in common. I never trained on the body language because I did signals intelligence. I was inter I was intercepting cell phones at the top at the time cell phones even faxes at the time, text messages and emails, whereas you're working directly with humans. And part of that, obviously, is to be able to tell who's telling you the truth and who's lying.
So narcissists, we know are pathological liars. What is the difference in your opinion between just someone who tells fibs, maybe exaggerates a little bit, that sort of lie, and like someone who is a pathological liar? Okay, well, there's a lot to unpack there. So if we start with understanding a little bit more about narcissism itself and the way I've been led to believe narcissism is more of a trait rather than a kind of...
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (02:36.822)
ailment, if you want to call it that. It's something that in its own way kind of has a spectrum to a degree. So and we all have narcissistic traits. Every human on the planet has narcissistic traits, you know, some more so than others. And, and of course, the more you understand, you know, that side of it, just like any other traits, you can have somebody who has a temper and somebody who, you know, kind of loses that temper frequently, and somebody who doesn't. So that
kind of gives you more of guide of narcissism. It's a self-protection thing. We're all born with it. We wouldn't be interested in survival if we didn't, because we wouldn't be interested in ourselves. So whereas some people are right down the lower diluted end and kind of care enough about themselves to keep themselves alive, you have the other end of it where people are highly in, you know, the high, excuse me.
new tongue, I'm breaking it in. They hold themselves in really high self-regard and, you know, start kind of seeing themselves as this grandiose figure where everything is about them. And when everything is about them, that's when the kind of the lies and the deception comes into it, because it's all about making themselves look better or making other people look worse in an attempt to make themselves look better.
That is 100 % correct. And that is at the end, how it played out in my relationship, because my ex ended up being arrested and charged with domestic assault and harassment. And just a brief background of at the end, what he did, he harmed me, gave me a concussion and broke my collarbone.
And he told everybody I self-harmed. threw myself into a wall and broke my own collarbone and gave myself a concussion. And every goodwill gesture, kind of afforded him. He manipulated it to turn it that story. So for instance, we have something called a PFA, which is a protection from abuse order. And he was a professor that studied, believe it or not, violence and even PFA orders. And he got funding from that.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (04:47.894)
And so when I, got a temporary PFA, but when I went to get the permanent one, his lawyer asked, can we drop that to a civil no contact so that he can keep his funding and his job? And I did agree to drop it to a civil no contact. He used that goodwill gesture to paint the picture that I couldn't get a PFA because I made it up. And then in the United States, we, at least in my state, we have something called the violence diversion program. And it's something that people can go through rather than.
face a public trial and jail time if they do are guilty of assaulting someone in their lives or harassment. And I signed off and agreed that he could go through that rather than putting the whole family through a trial and through potential jail time, him losing his job. He had two kids that were not my kids that were dependent on him. And again, he twisted that to say his charges were dropped because they were made up. Yes.
Could you speak a little bit to like who does something like that? Right and none of that surprises me unfortunately and yeah um so unfortunately like people that are display high levels of narcissism tend to look upon empathy as a weakness and and a kind of chink in the armor so therefore they'll they'll kind of utilize it and leverage absolutely everything you do one way or another who will look at as being kind of oh I can use that to my advantage.
Unlike psychopathy, narcissism, like I say, is a trait. this is it's a word that gets thrown around so much these days, like everybody, you know, they've only got to be five minutes late and not care. And all of a sudden they're a narcissist, you know, it's not quite like that. If you do have somebody who's right up there on that kind of narcissistic spectrum, as it were, then yes, they can be quite a devious person to to kind of deal with because everything, every kind of
action that you perform or lack thereof will be something that you know they will look at and go how can I use that to my advantage life is like a great big game of chess to them and everybody they know is a piece on the board you know it's something that they'll if they have no use for you you won't be in their life and ultimately if other people have influence over you like if you have a sister or a colleague that kind of supports you
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (07:13.438)
they will demonize that person or isolate you in any way they can from other people so that the only information you're getting is coming from them and that way you can be more easily be, I'm doing it again, I apologize, more easily controlled. It's not actually that late here in England and I swear this is only tea in this cup, I promise. It's only tea, okay. No, that is 100 % reminiscent of my experience.
I was, we only hung out with his friends, my friends slowly but surely one by one, I was isolated from, they were no good, they were, didn't have my, according to him, my best interest in mind, they were sneaky, all this stuff. Also for the first time in my adult life, in any, my life in general, I was on non-speaking terms with my parents. Now we had gotten into rifts, you little spits past before, but extended periods of non-speaking. And then anyone that remained in our lives,
He fed, and I only learned about this after the fact, he fed for years them stories that I was crazy, I was insane, I was unstable, so that he then used that whenever he assaulted me to paint the picture that I went crazy, I self-harmed, and a lot of them bought it hook, line, and sinker. They're very convincing.
definitely. And this is the kind of thing that they will do. what they'll tend to do is one by one, they will maybe approach your friends, your family, your inner circle, as it were. And they'll say, look, you know, I didn't want to say anything about this, but you know, she's got this little thing going on and kind of trust you and trust your silence and blah, blah. And then what they'll do is slowly start, you know, a thin end of a wedge going in where they will start prising that crack open between you and your friend until eventually.
you know, it comes to pausing all together. That is exactly what he did. He would even like, I do have OCD, I'm not ashamed of that. And I also have sleep, a sleep problem. So he would take pictures of my medicine and go talk to people and be like, I'm really worried. Now never say a word to me. We're in counseling during almost our entire relationship for his drinking problems. We're talking about this every week with a therapist.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (09:33.63)
ever mentioned anything to me, but behind my back, especially to his one friend who actually did have a bipolar wife. I'm really worried about Ekho. I don't know what to do. She's on these medicines. She's acting, you know, insane crazy. But then his behaviors didn't match any of these alleged concerns. He left his kids alone with me repeatedly for all weekend while he would go to conferences or wherever he went. He never
brought it up with me, never suggested I get any help, anything like that, because there wasn't an issue with me. But this is sort of the nefarious, these are sort of the nefarious behaviors he engaged in behind my back for years. And again, like none of this is surprising me in the sense of, you know, when they approach other people, that it's, everything is about kind of smoking mirrors where they will tend to
you know, I'm really worried or you know, and they'll make themselves look like the caring party and the other person look like the bad party that will push and push and push you until you snap in front of everybody. And then when you snap in front of everybody, you're the one who's the problem. So, again, you're it's like you're reading my mind. So that I call that reactive abuse. So what he did is, which is really nefarious as well as he
took, he got it, we got into a fight and what he would do when we'd get into arguments is he would take all my electronics. So I had no way of like texting or getting help or calling the police. So he gathered up my phone. He broke, he actually smashed my iPad. He took the cord to my computer and he started hitting me and I did react. I reacted. I threw something. I broke something. He recorded that part of our interaction. He recorded it because he had his phone and he had mine for that matter. And then he used that.
to show people, look, she's on hinge, you know, she's crazy, and to further paint his picture of he was the innocent victim and I was the abuser. Yeah, and this is all typical behavior. So, I mean, what I would like to do with your permission is kind of help people, help your followers here a little bit by giving them one simple sentence to identify a narcissist. I'd love that, please. Really, really easy. And all you've got to do is listen carefully to the answer.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (11:53.23)
It's not so much the answer, it's what comes after the answer. And all you have to do to anybody who you believe has high levels of narcissistic traits is say, hi, how was your day? Okay. That's it. And what they'll do, they'll tell you about their day, they'll say how this happened, that happened, the other happened, or, it may be to complain about somebody, it may be to say how somebody made them, you know, how brilliant they are doing something or whatever the case may be. But at the end of the story, that'll be it.
Whereas a normal person will turn around and say, how about you? What was your day like? And that's what you're listening for. You're listening for, does the story stop when they stop talking about themselves or do they go for reciprocation? Is there kind of, you know, what about you? How about your day? So that's how you identify. Is it all about them or are they actually interested in you as well?
That is a very solid and wise way of trying to parse out who is a narcissist and who isn't because you're right. A normal person, I don't know about a normal person, but I can say like in my case, I don't really like to talk that much about me. So I would say a few things, but then I would extend that same question to the person I was talking to so that they could share a bit about their day as well. But a narcissist, as you rightfully point out, they don't care.
And if you want to push it even further, all you've to do is look for a little bit of empathy. you want a solid kind of confirmation of that, if you've asked them how their day was, not required, you may turn around and say, well, look, today, I did X, Y, and Z. You may turn around and say, oh, no, I really, really hurt myself. And then after following up, you say something like, would you like a coffee?
and then if they just turn around dismissing the fact that you hurt themselves and say, yes, you know, two sugars and plenty of green, please then, then, know, if there's no empathy there at all, then, you know, start, these are all little red flags. And I just wouldn't mind going back as well to the, mentioned the OCD thing. this is something that a lot of people don't realize as well that we also all have levels of OCD. And if anybody doesn't believe me, then.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (14:12.222)
I will put money on the fact that everybody has particular ways they do certain things, whether it's the way they tie their shoelaces the same every time, they put each boot on one before the other, whether it's the way they make their coffee. People really freak out over, you know, it be the sugar first, then the coffee, then the milk, then the water, and then you get others going, no, no, no, you put the water, then the milk. Everybody has levels of OCD and we all have it, you know, and so therefore it's not anything that is unusual or even wrong. It's just something that...
but some people have a different kind of experience with it. But others, yeah, wow. I agree with that as well. is sort of a spectrum as well, just like narcissism is a spectrum. You also, you mentioned a few things that I found were very interesting, but let me just ask you, the narcissist is very good at lying and clever and manipulative. What are some ways that maybe you can detect if they are lying?
It's a lot more difficult with narcissists than it is the average person. Because with an average person, they know that it's wrong to lie. So their cortisol levels rise, the stress indicators go up, there's different things that happen that show that a person is lying. Because most people, let's face it, most decent people are uncomfortable with lying. So narcissists, on the other hand, really don't care.
You know, so this is where it becomes a major, major problem. But what you can do is if you test the perimeter of the lie and see how they react. So if they turn around and say, oh, did you know I was a football champion back in high school in 1989 and I did blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (16:03.98)
You said you were a football champion in 1989, yet you told me also that you were in hospital for a year in 1989. And then we'll see how they react. Now normal person might turn up say, yeah, maybe I've got my years mixed up. Let me go back and check or whatever the case may be. Where a narcissist is like, no, that's not the case. They will flare up, they'll explode at you and their reaction will be completely different. And what they'll tend to do is blame you, no matter what.
You know, it's something that, know, no, you're getting your years wrong. You're getting this wrong. You know, this is all your fault. so the analysis will never take the blame for something. And that's when, you know, they won't turn around and say, yeah, I might be wrong, actually. Maybe it was 1988. Maybe. So so what they'll do, they'll blame you rather than saying, I'm possibly in any way at fault because in their world, it's just an impossibility for them to be at fault for anything.
I love that you say testing the borders of the lie because what is really interesting in my case specifically, and I'm sure in many other cases is their lies don't hold up to scrutiny. once you actually like, if you believe this lie, like if you believe that I was, let's say insane as he tries to say, for instance, well, what did you do beforehand to get her help? What did you do afterwards to try to get her help?
Why did you leave your kids with her if she was insane? You know, like these sort of questions that anyone that was actually thinking critically about it might ask and might show that the story doesn't add up. And what also is interesting is he has spent a lot of time as narcissists do trying to triangulate people, talk to my friends, talk to our community. And he's kind of told them all slightly different stories or stories that they don't just all add up.
And so this has actually turned out to be a problem at our church. He was the former president of the church and a lot of people, when this happened, took his side in the church. And so there's been some, for a lot of reasons, drama over this. And I suggested that everybody come into the church if they want to, so it's two years out, rather than us keep going back and forth with this, sit down, anyone that wants to, and we can rehash what happened. And he won't do it.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (18:26.668)
And I believe the reason he won't do it is because he's told everybody slightly different variants. And if everybody sat down together and talked about this, they would realize that story doesn't add up. Yeah. And in all honesty, even if they managed to do that, even if you managed to pull that off to get everybody in the room with him at the same time and yourself, there would always be a case of,
He would manipulate the people around him and say, look, Sandra, told you that at the time because we were going through this patch and I was trying to cover up for her. was trying to... There will always be that kind of thing. Yeah, it will always be about how he was trying to be the saint and the martyr. You were the bad one and he took the blame for you, how he, you know, kind of tried to cover for you. He was trying to help. So he lied for you. And even if you get what I call a microc... What's known in the trades of micro confession.
And he may turn around and say, yeah, look, I did tell that little white lie because, you know, I was trying to cover up for this big horrible thing that she did. And what it'll be, be like a small confession to a little white lie to make you look 10 times worse. Exactly. So that's what I figured. know, a lot of his friends, because I didn't find any reason to share this information, you know, I have police reports, I have hospital records, I have pictures of me, you know, beat up that kind of stuff.
And I oftentimes wondered if we would all get in the room and I would show that. What would he say? mean, is he going to continue to say I threw myself into a wall and broke my own collarbone and gave myself a concussion? What, what do they say when presented with actual evidence? this kind of thing that they'll.
kind of two reactions that will either go one way with a kind of look, I told you she was crazy. All this made up stuff. She's piled it all up to try and make me look bad. You know, you've got this police report, which is totally insane. You know, they would carry on defending the lie because in their mind, it's, know, whichever way it is for them, they've they've constructed it in a way that it fits their narrative. And he would say there's all this kind of
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (20:39.726)
BS that's going on with, you know, she told the police this, she told the police that, she did this, she did that, and it's all to make me look bad. They'll play the victim, they'll, you know, they'll do all sorts of things, or they'll go completely the opposite way and they will explode into a fit of rage and saying, I can't believe you've gone this far with this stupidity. I'm not having any part of this at all. And then storm out and say, you know, and kind of walk away again enraged at the fact that they're the one having the finger pointed at them for something they've done.
Yeah, I hope that makes sense. That does make sense. What do you think makes them so convincing to so many people? that's beautiful. Have you ever seen one of those films, those kind of basic instinct kind of films or one of those TV dramas where everybody around thinks the bad guy is lovely?
apart from the one person whose story it is who's getting abused and they all love this bad guy and they're like, but he does this for charity, he does that and he does the other. And yeah, this is exactly how they play pretty much every angle. So as you can imagine, I've done a lot of work in the intelligence community and I've done a lot of work on deception, deception for law enforcement and for private clients. And there are certain things that you start to notice.
And one of these is what they call a resume statement. Okay. And what you can do is you can turn around to somebody and say, you know, did you hit this particular person and leave her on the floor crying? And instead of saying no, or I wouldn't do something like that, or whatever the case may be, they wouldn't, they wouldn't come up with a normal kind of everyday explanation to what somebody else would say, no, I wouldn't do something like that. They'll turn around and they'll put their arm around and say, let me tell you something.
And you go, okay. And they go, I've donated $480 last year to charity. I've kind of sold Bibles for the church. I've done this fun run to raise money. I did this beat the counts. think I did this, I did that, I did the other. I'm such a wonderful person. Look at me and how good I am. Do you really think?
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (22:51.488)
I would hit this girl and leave her on the floor if that's thing. And what that is, it's a really, really clever and manipulative way to say, look at me, I'm this good guy, I do this, I do that, I do the other. And then they get you to doubt them yourself because what they're doing is they're painting this picture of how much of a good guy they are, how much they do for charity, everything. And you're taking it all in, you're going, okay, yeah, he has done that, he has done this, he has done the other. So you're starting to say, well, if he has done these and what he's saying is true, then anything that he...
he's coming out with next must be true as well so instead of actually then answering the question and saying no I didn't hit her he will ask you the question do you really think that I would do something like that if I'm this kind of person and then what happens is you doubt yourself you go yeah would he would he really no he has done this charity work he is such a great guy isn't he he is a saint yeah he's right she wouldn't have hit her then they convinced themselves
And I mean, I don't know how much you know about PsyOps, but this is tactic in the PsyOps community amongst like kind of the intelligence agencies. And it's quite simple. If somebody draws their own conclusion of something, it's a lot stronger evidence than if you tell them something. If you know, if I tell you, you know, that the sky is green, you know, you'll go, I'm not sure if I believe you.
But if I show you lots of things that might hint the sky is green and you know something is making you believe it's blue and blah blah blah and then you look at little bits and pieces and you go do you know what he's right you draw your own conclusion it's semantic and because it's you and your conclusion and you've come to it yourself you believe it a lot stronger and therefore you'll defend that kind of new theory or notion and that's why these narcissists win people over. Yes, yes and...
Another thing he would do, and I'm wondering if this is part of like something to do PsyOps or even just general manipulation, because that is key as the manipulation and the deceit, he would kind of find out the weakness in somebody or something traumatic that happened to that person. And he wouldn't mirror that. So for instance, he had a friend, as I said, whose wife was bipolar and with her,
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (25:10.176)
You know, Ekho has these profound mental health issues. I just don't know what to do. It's a bonding technique. Is that okay? Because what it is, it's actually used in the world of NLP where if... What's NLP? NLP is neuro-linguistic programming. it's a form of, and I use the term likely because people don't understand it and they get really, really concerned, but it's a form of mind control. And now when I say that, it's...
Mind control you can use on yourself as well as others, it's more if you use properly can be used as a form of therapy. So if you think of it more of like cognitive behavioral therapy, more so than mind control, that's a better way of looking at it. People get scared when they hear those words and they go, you're to turn me into a zombie and make me shoot a president. But it's not quite that. So NLP has this theory where if you are like somebody,
then naturally they like you. And it can be as simple sometimes as seeing someone wear the same brand as you or do something that you do, have something that you have and you've got, snap, I got one of them. you know, so automatically, you know, if you drive a Ford and they drive a Ford, then you know, and you're parked next to each other, model and color and everything else and you get out of the car, you automatically like that person.
because you think, you know, they think like me, they are like me, they've got the same as me. therefore, you know, and it just gives you that little bit of an advantage. And what happens is you've got that bond instantly to say this person's like me, if they're like me, I'm a good person. And if I'm a good person, then they must be a good person. And it helps strengthen that connection and that bond. And all you've got to do from there is just build on up from there and come out with familiarities. If you can produce parallels,
between what you've done and what they've done and what they've experienced and what you've experienced, that just continues to completely strengthen the bond. And the more time they get together, the more they side with the person who's the bad guy in the movie, as it were. And do narcissists and other people with personality disorders, how do they learn these techniques? It feels like they all use very similar techniques. How do you even?
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (27:29.422)
learn those? mean, are they reading about them? Are they natural to them? Like, how do they even know this? Yeah, I know. It does make you wonder, doesn't it, if there's like a little website called Narcissists to Us somewhere that they all go and share tips, you know. But unfortunately, we are as humans, are inherently brilliant at learning. So, you know, you'll tend to find certain people will display certain traits and that kind of thing. So
without kind of picking on any specific demographic, but you might notice a particular group of people dress a particular way. And you might notice that that particular group of people, no matter what country they're from, they might wear tie-dye skirts from, for example, and they'll wear tie-dye skirts.
all the same demographic around the world. you know, and this is what happens and they've never met each other and they never, but they all share those very, very similar traits, very much like how we can say, know, teenagers kind of grunt at you and they just become naturally who they are. And because narcissists are very kind of, because it's all about them, it's all about learning quickly to what's going to benefit them best. see.
and rapidly. So they're going to learn really, really fast. When I say this, it has that reaction. So that gets me what I want. So therefore I'll say that more often. When I say this, has the opposite reaction. It doesn't get me what I want. So I'll say that less often. so they're kind of constantly testing perimeters, testing fences, testing boundaries, testing everything permanently to see how far.
something will get them. It's nothing to do with you. It's nothing to do with making you cry or making you upset. It's all about how far it can get them and what's in it for them. So unfortunately, people like yourselves fall victim to their tests. Yes. Because that's what it's about at the end of the day. You'll notice that if you look back through the majority of your experiences, you'll more than likely find that there was an end game somewhere along the line, like hypothetically you might have said, I want to go fishing.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (29:39.574)
and you go, no, I don't want you to go fishing. And then all of sudden there'll be an argument. And at the end of it, he'll be going fishing. Yes. And the, and the next time he wants to go fishing, instead of coming to you and saying, I want to go fishing. He won't say that because of the fact that he knew last time he asked you permission, you said, no, it resulted in an argument. This time he's going to go straight to the argument. So he's going to come in. He's going to go, you're always treating me like this. I've had enough. I'm fed up with this. You, know, you're such a bad person. I'm going fishing. I need some alone time.
And you go, what just happened? You know, you're left there in shock like, hang on, you know, was baking cookies a minute ago. And then all of a sudden you've had this great big round. He's gone off with his fishing gear. And so what they've done is they've just, they've refined the product, streamlined the process a little bit so that they've got the end result they desire a lot faster. Wow. Wow. And he was a master at that. He even bragged behind closed doors about saying things like,
You don't understand how to deal with people. You know, you're like a bull in a china shop. You go in, you just say what you say. He's like, I can charm anybody. I can, you know, he would say this to me behind closed doors and he was very proud of it. And he understood nuances on how people thought in a way that not only do I not understand, but I wouldn't even spend time trying to understand because it doesn't matter to me. It's just, it's not important. Well, it wasn't English was it?
Just checking. So yeah, we have a bad reputation for either being organized crime or spies for some reason. All around the world. You're either a master criminal or you're a spy if you're English. But no, yeah, it's something that, again, like you say, I'm using the word normal people, but I don't even know if that's even allowed to be politically correct these days. But yeah, the average person, let's say, goes about their business and goes about their day kind of.
you know, talking to people and conversing with people and kind of, you know, living their life as a normal person would. But the narcissist is, is all about noticing these little micro expressions, noticing about, you know, what was that person thinking? Because in all honesty, a lot of the time they're actually very, very insecure. very insecure. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So what they're looking for is
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (32:00.366)
Ah, when I said this, were they looking at me with disgust? Were they looking at me with contempt? So they're working out every little thing about a person's reaction to something they're saying so they know whether it's had a good or bad or positive result and they may even obsess over it. They may even come home and say something to you like, Ekho, know, when we were at that party and Dave said, what do you think he meant by that? And they might obsess over somebody's reaction. Did you see the way he did this? Did see the way he looked at me? Did you see the way he spoke to...
or ignored me or walked past me. So and again it's all about them. It's always all about them. It's nothing to do with like kind of you know how you felt or what was going on in that person's mind and and this is something that they struggle to understand is context. So a narcissist might walk up to somebody and say hey how you doing and they just leave me alone and they'll be like what did I do and it's all about like why did they react to me like that you know instead of thinking
hang on, is that person having a bad day? What's wrong with them? So the empathy isn't there and because the empathy is not there and they don't understand it, it kind of confuses issues and makes it difficult for them to kind of comprehend everyday life. And talking about empathy, you said at the beginning, and I want to touch on this really briefly, but you said they view it with contempt and that is exactly...
how he viewed empathy. He viewed it as a weakness to be exploited. And this will happen a lot. And unfortunately, these are the kind of people who make brilliant salespeople. Who are the salespeople? yeah, they make brilliant salespeople. They make brilliant human behavioral scientists. make, you know, there are a lot of people out there that kind of have the roles of certain narcissists.
or where there's little empathy involved are brilliant because with things like sales, for example, it's all about the numbers. It's all about the sales. They don't care that you've maxed out your credit card to get the sale. They don't care that you've sold the prized possession to get the money to buy the item they're selling because if they did, a lot of salespeople wouldn't sell the way they do. So for narcissists,
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (34:17.356)
You know, it's an ideal job to be in sales because of the fact that, for them, they're just getting the numbers up, you know, and the results are irrelevant. So, and this, by the way, I must clarify, I'm not saying all salespeople are narcissists. That's not the case. What I'm saying is, you know, narcissists make good salespeople. So please save me from that one. Don't edit that out. So that's very interesting. It's like you're reading my mind almost. one of the most disturbing stories he ever told me was in college, he sold.
knives, like very expensive knives, like $1,200 knife sets for a kitchen. And he told the story about he sold a set of knives to his parents and they were on the brink of bankruptcy. I think they did. Now, obviously the knives didn't push him over, but they certainly weren't in a position to buy $1,200 knives. But that sell netted him a free trip to Hawaii. So I oftentimes thought like,
Something seems really off with that story that you're very proud about. It's almost like saying, I sold my sister's kidney. And you go, really? go, yeah, but I had a vacation out of it. What about your sister? So yeah, it doesn't surprise me because a lot of the time there's not much that they wouldn't consider. And there's nobody they wouldn't consider hurting.
to get what they want out of life. And I don't know if you know much about the origin of where the word narcissist comes from. do, and that's where Ekho comes from, if you know the Greek story. Of narcissists, And Ekho, that was the rule. that is why I go by I am Ekho. so that says a lot. I did wonder if that was the case, but yeah. Yes, that is the case, yes. Well, there you go. And it's all about the individual and their wants, needs, and desires.
I mean, I will say what I said earlier about asking somebody about how their day is not a 100 % foolproof test. You know, it's something that, you know, if you're in a relationship with somebody and you believe they have, you know, high narcissistic traits and tendencies, then, you know, kind of go and get a proper test done. If that person is, is, is up for that, you know, and that's, that's the hardest part, but that, that in itself will tell you.
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you know, so much about the person because their reaction alone to having that test will be some, you know, will kind of definitely shine a light, as it were. That is very true. And you're right. And I think the numbers of reported narcissists are so low because they don't think there's anything wrong with them. So they don't get help and they don't get treatment and they don't get diagnosed. And even if they are, there really isn't much you can do. You know, there's not like a pill you can take.
Not really. mean, at the moment, the current kind of consensus, as it were, is about managing it rather than treating it. I do believe it's something that in time we will learn more about and just like, yeah, I mean, just like any other trait, like anger management or anything else, it can be something that, you know, we will know more and learn more about and be able to regulate it. But for all the other people out there who
believe they're in a narcissistic relationship or believe they're going through any kind of abuse at all, start putting some protections in place, understand that it's not you and it's not anything to do with you, it's the other person that you're in a relationship with and look for the red flags, there are plenty of them, there's plenty of internet sites out there that will tell you the kind of things to say that will help identify somebody because yeah, it's a...
It's a horrible world. As you know yourself, it's difficult when you're isolated and it doesn't feel like there's anybody to turn to and you're questioning your own sanity. I mean, I really at the end was questioning my own sanity. And to be quite honest, after our five-year relationship with him, I was not in tip-top mental health. I was sad. I felt confused. I felt scared. And then on top of that, then after he started...
he assaulted me and then all the lies and the betrayal and him turning people against me. You know, I felt betrayed. felt ashamed. I felt all those negative sort of emotions. I didn't have a name for any of this. I didn't know anything about narcissism. I didn't know anything about any of this. And then I started just kind of, what am I going through? What's going on? And I ran into people like Dr. Romani and other experts in narcissism. And I was like,
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (38:53.262)
This is bringing just way too close to home. And so just hearing other people's stories and knowing that you're not alone, there is a name for it, it's not you, and there are communities, lots of communities out there to support you and help you, to me has been life-changing. And that really is a great thing. The more people kind of network amongst themselves to help each other and realize that they aren't alone, it really is well worth kind of people knowing about that.
And again, you know, the hardest part for a lot of people is when they first start this relationship off with a narcissistic person, that narcissistic person is going to absolutely adore them because it's all about them, as we know. And therefore you are like the flavor of the month at that particular time. You know, you're everything that person wants. So they're going to.
treat you like an absolute princess or like royalty or whatever the case may be. And you know, they will make you the center of the world because for a moment you will be because, you know, yeah, that's just kind of, that's what they want. And what happens is you get so used to this, you think there's such a wonderful person, you fall in love with them, you think I finally met my Prince Charming, he's so great, he's so wonderful, blah, And then you end up in this relationship and then bit by bit they'll...
they'll kind of start, there'll be chinks and then they'll also start chipping away at things. They'll start chipping away at your friends and your family. They'll start saying things like, what's your friend? I don't trust her. And then when they've got you isolated and the abuse starts, and again, a lot of this will be blame shifting. It will be down to, you know, kind of saying, even if they did something crazy, it will be a case of look what you made me do.
To the point whenever he threw me against the wall. So he told everybody these lies, but we were in even after the second assault after the second time he was arrested for assault, not the second assault, but the second time he was arrested. We then went through like five months of couples therapy to see if our marriage could be salvaged. It was clear we couldn't. He said to me when he was being truthful about what happened in his mind, truthful about what happened. He said,
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (41:04.204)
Well, you broke your own collarbone because when I threw you against the wall, you put your arm out to brace yourself and that's how it broke. So I broke my own collarbone by putting my arm out to brace myself when he threw me against the wall. Yeah. Typical reply. know, yeah, everything will always be about blame shifting.
constantly one way or another, even in the most ironic and crazy and insane of ways it looks. So anything that happens, whether it's a car gets stolen, it's your fault. No matter what, if something gets smashed, it's your fault. He drops a glass and kind of drops it and smashes it on the floor. It's your fault. You might not have even been around.
you've somehow you'll manage to get the blame and it'll be a case of yeah, you made me get into a mood where I wasn't thinking properly and I wasn't concentrating. So therefore I dropped the glass and smashed it and it was all down to you. It's your fault. Yeah, exactly. And of course what they'll do and this is the hardest part towards like the kind of end of this kind of when the relationship starting to become a strain, you'll notice they've chipped away at your friends and family, they've chipped away at you.
And now what they'll do is they will try to take things a step further. And this is where it gets really, really horrible now because they'll start saying things like, nobody wants you. Nobody's interested in you. You've got no friends. Nobody loves you. No, you know, nobody cares for you. And, you know, and what they'll do is they'll, they'll, will put your,
perception of your self-value right down, you you will keep saying, yeah, you know, he's right. You know, how would I be in the world? I'm nothing without him or, know, can I survive? Is it true that my friends and family have all gone away and it's my fault that I've driven them away? Is it true that, you know, and even to the point where they might criticize physical features and, you know, and that kind of thing, put you down in such a way that your self-value decreases so much. Much. Yeah.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (43:03.95)
And again, this is just part of a mechanism that they use in order to stop you leaving them. They don't want you leaving them. And the reason they don't want you leaving them is because you'd be a weakness. You'd expose the lies to other. But once you get on your own and you get your strengths back, you get your friends back and people realize you're not the crazy one, all of a sudden they've lost control and it's all about control. They must have that control.
100 % and whenever it was clear that this relationship was ending he started this smear campaign harder on me. Started to manipulate people, convert what in the narcissist community we call flying monkeys, but they're basically just enablers that further support the narcissist and harm the victim. But he would always tell me things like, I'm the only person that understands you and knows who you are and still loves you. I'm the only person that can care for you like as if I'm in, you know,
unable to care for myself. I'm the only person that can care for you and love you and put up with you. And again, like by the end of that relationship, I went into the relationship. I was a very strong, confident, know, I'm ex military, I'm ex NSA. I had a good job as a researcher and a foreign consultant for foreign governments. I'm now a researcher. do competitive intelligence research. I went from being very confident in myself and sure of myself to by the end of that relationship,
I didn't have much self esteem. didn't have more much confidence. And now almost two years out, I'm building it back up. But they wear you down to the point where you do feel very bad about yourself. And it's all about control. Because because of the fact that, you know, they don't want the illusion shattered that they're such a nice, wonderful person. Yeah. And they do it in such a clever way, you know, where they will turn around and say, you know, you they will have you believing, you know, maybe I am, you know,
not as pretty as what I thought it was or, you not as this, not. And of course you start to believe it, your own, like I say, your own self-confidence diminishes a hell of a lot. You know, and this is something, another one of the weapons that they use. Everything they do is very carefully constructed, but it's also very gradual. It's like the chain link theory, you know, where they say if you've got a dog on a 30 yard chain and you take one link out a day.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (45:28.302)
Yeah, then eventually you'll have a dog on a two foot chain and it won't have ever noticed the difference. And this is exactly how they work, know, bit by bit by bit, they'll chip away at you and kind of turn you into somebody, unfortunately, that struggles with day to day life and blame yourself for it. And eventually if you can get free of what is hurting you and do what you've done and build your life back up, and this is for everybody who's kind of following you.
You can be free of this, you can build yourself back up and you you are the one on the receiving end of somebody else's damage, not your own. is 100 % true and that is a large part of what I hope my viewers and my followers realize is that there is hope. It is very bad. It may be one of, with the exception of my twins dying at birth, I did have that. This has been the worst thing that has ever happened to me my entire life.
dealing with this relationship and, and then the aftermath with like the smear campaign and him turning people against me and the lies and living in a small town that's particularly problematic. But there is hope at the other end there really is. And you will find over time, slowly, people will say, you know, after I thought about this for a while, his story doesn't make sense, or I saw something in him and
You're right. There is something off there or thank you for sharing your story. I haven't talked about my story, but I can relate so much to this. And so those sort of little bits of encouragement help keep you going and help make it so that you don't feel so alone and you feel like maybe you are making a positive impact in the world. yeah. And of course, I'm sorry, go on. No, no, please go ahead.
I was only going to say that in the world of deception detection, we have a saying and that is a lie has speed, but truth has endurance. whilst, you know, you said exactly the right thing there when you're on about like kind of word spread around, but bit by bit people start to realize, you know, yes, the line might spread fast, but eventually that lie burns out and people do the truth has the endurance to be able to come through and everybody will.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (47:43.222)
seats eventually. So don't give up hope if you're, especially if you are in a small town where there's a lot of people and you think everybody's against me because that's what has made things happen. It doesn't, it doesn't take too long before the tables do turn. doesn't, but you know, it can be particularly difficult in certain structures like a church where if he was, when there's great power, dynamic differences where he was like the president and I was a nobody.
You know, it's really hard in those sort of environments for you to be able to recover. And in many cases, it's just better to go find another community to belong to, be honest. Yeah, a lot of the time it is, unfortunately. And that's the other thing we, you know, as a, as a human race, we're hardwired to react to authority. So therefore anybody in a position of authority, we kind of, you know, whether it be a celebrity endorsement or a
a president or a police officer or whatever the case may be, if they say something, we tend to take that as gospel. So therefore, yeah, we don't question authority very often. And it does take a long time for people to be able to come around from that. I did want to ask you another question, and I don't know if you have any insight on this. My ex, had for a long time, whenever he lived in another state, a best friend. And then whenever he moved to where he lives now, he got another best friend. And he always told me,
there were narcissists. He described them as narcissists. And to be quite honest, I think they kind of displayed many traits of narcissism is I would think that narcissists would tend to gravitate toward people that weren't narcissists. And many of his like, he didn't have respect for them. But many of the people that liked him were not narcissists. But it seemed like his closest friends kind of were. Is that a trend you see?
Remember saying about how everybody's like a chess piece on the board. They will all have a value one way or another so so for a narcissist People it will never see people have been on the same. I keep saying this I'm gonna I must stop here for a minute. I keep going to he by default So just set the record straight here. There can be female narcissists as well I don't know why we just tend to always owe me personally tend to default to hate
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or the narcissist will tend to see people as being beneath them, almost as the level of servants, you know, they'll have a friend who's a mechanic, and that will be their best friend when they need their car fixing, and they'll have a friend that's a plumber, and that will be their best friend when the sink leaks or whatever the case may be. And very rarely have a best friend that's somebody that's known them for years, like for life, you know, they're very rarely in touch with their school friends, in touch with...
you know, old friends for years and whatever else, what they tend to have is what I call flavor of the month. They'll go to a new place, a new work, a new town or whatever the case may be. They'll find somebody that generally reflects exactly who they are. Then they'll like, you know, yeah, this person's like me and blah, blah. So next thing you know, they'll have this relationship. They probably will. You know, the old saying like attracts like. They probably will find somebody with narcissistic traits.
because they both have that for a long, long time, they will kind of bounce off each other and feel like a very close relationship. And then generally what will happen is that relationship will stop, just dead. And then all of a sudden it will be like kind of, yeah, what happened? He was a narcissist. He did this, he did that, he did the other, it was all his fault, no blame and nothing to do with me or him. And then they'll just move on to the next person.
If you do kind of, you know, if you're looking at getting into or you're in the early stage of a relationship with somebody. And again, this doesn't apply to everybody and this isn't a flawless method, but find out about their school friends, long term friends, family members and whatever else. And if they've fallen out with just about everybody, you know, every school friend they've ever had, everybody they've ever worked with, every family member they've got.
If they're one by one falling out with all of them and one by one they were close to lots of people but then no longer speak to them, that in itself should be a little red flag. that something is up, yes. And that definitely, that rings very, very true. Like I have friends from grad school, I have friends from high school, I don't have a lot of friends from high school, I went to a very small high school and I didn't have a lot of common with them, but I'm not like...
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angry at them or had falling outs with them. It's just we didn't have a lot in common. There were like 20 girls in my class. But I still have one friend that I meet with once or twice a month. And then, you know, I have friends from the military that I've been lifelong friends with. have friends from grad school that I've been lifelong friends with. What was really interesting is no one from his past ever was involved in his current situation to include his family. thought this was kind of odd.
They never, they live 1500 miles away, but no one ever came to visit him ever. No family, no friends from the past, anybody. And he would go once a year to visit his family and it always, not always, mostly ended in a disaster where he would end up.
for that week, you know, he would make it half the week and then the other half the week he'd be at a hotel 40 miles away because his dog did his dad didn't lock up the dog the entire time and he accused his dad of loving the dog more than his grandkids or something like like weird, right? Very weird. Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, these are all things that hate that's him being the victim of his own circumstance.
Why didn't he ask his dad to lock the door rather than turn around and say, you know, my dad loves the dog more than the kids. Or turn around and say, hey, dad, you know, can we put the dogs and the kids in the different rooms or so? There's always a rational way to work things out, you know, that everybody could be pleased or whatever the case may be. And if it comes to an extreme and that in itself, again, is something that people need to look out for of these kind of extreme levels or something. Couples.
do have disagreements. Absolutely. I've been with my wife 17 years and it's been up and down and we've had rouses and upsets and blah blah blah and whatever else but we're still together and the truth of the matter is a disagreement isn't the end of a relationship it's just something that you don't agree on at that particular time. So what I tend to look at if you're in a relationship with somebody and every time
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (54:38.926)
you kind of have a little bit of a spat, just a little bit of a tiff and they go, right, that's it, it's over, I'm done, I'm through. And then all of a sudden they're walking out and then they're waiting for you to go change and go, no, please, please don't leave me. That's an extreme, especially if it's over something really silly and really, really small. Yeah, so if they're screaming it's over or they wanna divorce because you've spilled some milk or, you know, or whatever, then, you know, and if that's what they, even if they start asking that.
if they start turning around saying, is what you're saying is it's over? Is what you're saying is you're one of the boys, you don't want to be with me anymore, you don't love me anymore. It's all part of a manipulative play. Yeah, so you that's all you're You don't love me anymore. So you go, no, no, no, of course, I still love you. You've just this power dynamic has just shifted. Now the upper hand is with them because now they've got you trying to prove that their love to you. And so you've got this whole thing now where they're going to
leading you along the way they want you to act and be. You know that that's interesting because my relationship with him was constant on and off on and off on and off. I must we must have broken up and gotten back together 50 times. I'm not joking in a five-year it felt like every month and it was over something trivial or stupid or I said this or I did I mean silly silly things silly things that
You just never felt safe or comfortable or knew where you stood. And that's exactly it. know, if you, if you're worried constantly about every single conversation, if you're, and I know, mean, you know, I'm old enough and ugly enough to know that women have women conversations where they talk about their partners and life and vacation and all different kinds of things and whatever else. And so narcissists don't particularly like that because of their own insecurities.
Um, you know, so they don't like kind of, know, the, the women's ladies room chats and that kind of thing. It's something that they're not fond of. Um, so that, that's why they tried to cut it all out and separate you from, from your friends and that kind of thing. Um, but if if you find that you're having to go off and sneak and talk to your, your mom or your sister or your friend or somebody somewhere and saying, Oh, I can't tell him.
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And they're going, go, you could react like this. You could react like this. there's this constant panic of how do I break it to him that I've done X or how do I tell him that such and such is happening? If that's a constant, real constant concern with every little thing, then you really need to stop questioning the relationship in its entirety. Wow. That is very insightful. Yeah, I agree. Another thing I wanted to ask you.
Hold on, let me gather my thoughts here for a second. So it felt like also with him, whenever he would do these good deeds. So for instance, at a church, there's a lot of behind the scenes work you have to do that doesn't net you a lot of attention that doesn't get you your picture on Facebook or whatever. He would never do that.
but if it was something that he knew a lot of people would see and recognize him doing, or maybe you would get him his picture, like I said, on social media, that's what he would do. Is that kind of typical narcissist behavior as well? Yeah. So everything from Instagram photos to the work that they do is going to tell you something about their personality. So for example, if you look at somebody's Instagram photos,
and they've got their phone, you know, they're like this, or you're looking at the picture and they are dead center, absolutely dead center, but the person they're with is behind and to the left all the time. Yeah, you know, off to the side or in the background, that literally streams, look at me, I'm center of attention. Whoever's with me is behind or beneath or below or beside me. They're not as important as me.
I'm the one in the middle and the one you should be paying attention to. And that extends to everything they do in kind of life. you know, they would rather be seen doing something that is going to get them a pat on the back than doing something that's going to get them reward. It's not just about doing something good. It's about being seen to be doing something.
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and recognize for doing good, yes. Exactly, yeah. They want a crowd there, they want people clapping, want badges of honor and pats on the back and that kind of thing. And this is more important to them, this significance is more important than anything else when it comes to working and the amount of work they do. They're not working to make a difference in a community, they're working for recognition for the difference that they make in the community.
That's interesting because he and his best friend formed this nonprofit organization and to see their posts, you would think they're saving the world. They're retraining all the people that have been laid off in Western, where we live in Appalachia from the mines and the steel mills and the power plants. And they're making all this difference in saving the world. And people within the organization tell me,
We are so disorganized. don't, don't think we do anything. I don't know what we do, but man, there's, or the people that were used to be associated with it are like, there's no work that gets done. We're not really doing anything, but boy, the level of attention on, on social media is just outrageous. Yeah. Anything like that for recognition in any way, you know, that they can get it. They're the kind of people who wouldn't put a
dime in a charity box if nobody was looking, but if somebody was looking, they'd put $100 in there if the camera was rolling and it was, yeah. And this is the kind of people, unfortunately, that are, that they will, they will give with one hand, but they'll take a hell of a lot more with the other when nobody's looking. It's funny because when he was president of the church, his ex-wife, who is also the mother of his children, was one of three paid employees and he
was going through a divorce at the time and his child support payments and his alimony payments sort of were all dependent on her income. So he voted to increase her salary. He pushed to increase her benefits as president of the church, which was a huge conflict of interest. But then he would give like, you know, a $2,000 donation to the church and everyone would be like, my goodness. But as you're saying that 2000, he netted so much more out of that.
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And of course that $2,000 donation wouldn't have been anonymous. no, no, Everybody knew what he gave. I'm sure. knew. Yeah. And that kind of thing will happen with everything. it's kind of, you'll see, especially I should imagine when it comes to the children, I bought them this, I bought them that, you know, their mother bought them A and I bought them B, C and D, you know, and their mother bought them the kind of budget level I bought.
the premium X and I upgraded them. It will always be about how you're doing a little bit, but he's doing a load. I really wish we could learn more about this in a way where everybody could benefit because it is a shame when we're victimizing couples and a relationship because of a narcissistic one out of two.
And the victim doesn't learn anything from it and the narcissist doesn't learn anything from it. The narcissist then just goes on to do it to somebody else. And the victim then goes on to kind of, you know, have a wasted part of their life, you know, which is such a shame. And I really, I wish there was a happy medium where, you know, we could get these signs recognized early. So as that person on the receiving end can say, look, we need to do something about this and put the ultimatum there of either look, either we sort this out or I'm going.
You know, it needs to be managed or I need to start a new life with somebody who doesn't treat me the way you do. Absolutely. I wish there was a way for us to detect these people because they are so clever. They're so crafty. They do lure you in immediately. What I was told that kind of rang true with me, I don't know if you'd agree with this, but they're so good at mirroring the person and to sort of you become their everything. Oh, I love that. You love this and they love that and you like this and they love that.
is who you actually fall in love with is yourself because they've mirrored you and that's who you fall in love with when you fall in love with a narcissist and then little by little the real them, the mass drops, the real them shows and they chip away at you. Have you ever seen the movie Runaway Bride which I believe was Julia Roberts? It was Julia Roberts, I haven't seen that though.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (01:03:31.948)
That's really interesting because in that she goes through two or three different marriages where at the altar at the last minute she panics and she runs off and hence the name runaway bride. when the, when, and of course it's Richard Gere that is the handsome one at the end who tries to fix it and get everything right. He goes around and he speaks to each of the previous, you know, would be husbands to find out what he can about, you know, Julia Roberts. And he asks, you know, what kind of music?
And the one says, oh, she likes the same music as me. She likes reggae. And you ask the other one, she says, oh, she likes the same music as me. She likes rock and roll. OK, what about reggae? No, no, she couldn't stand it. OK. Then she goes to the other one, what music does she like? Oh, she likes the same music as me. She likes pop.
What about rock and roll or reggae? No, no, couldn't stand any of that. And it was the same thing with the eggs, you know, that she wanted them sunny side up with the one guy, scrambled with another guy. And yeah. And what it was, she was doing exactly that. She was mirroring the person she was with to kind of, you know, feel part of their life and feel close and have that bond. And this is very much what they do. You know, they'll love everything you love until later on. And then later on down the line, you know, they'll turn around and they'll say, you know,
I don't want my eggs like this anymore. I don't want them scrambled anymore. I want them sunny-sided or whatever. And like you say, the true them starts to come out because I mean, I know that you used to work intelligence and there is a lot of undercover operatives that are generally, they generally have a ceiling of three months for most operations. And that's purely because of the fact that most people can't keep up a pretense beyond three months.
It's as simple as that. So you do get long-term operations, but very, very rare. The majority of the time it's three months. So if you've been with somebody, look for that magic amount of time. Look for that 90th day, because that's when things are gonna really start showing their true colors, because nobody can pretend to be something they're not, beyond three months, very, very well. So that's when you're gonna start seeing all the cracks.
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If I think about it, we started dating in October and the first time we broke up out of many, like I said, was about January. And that was the first time that it was like, something is off here. So it was about three months that he was able to kind of keep it up. But at that point, I think I was already very much in love with him. And so, you know, the trauma bond had already started to form and he, it's usually the case. let my better senses go and I.
kept going back, kept going back, kept going back. But this is what happens, you know, and it's not your fault in the sense of, you know, you are human and as humans we look for the good in people, we do give people the benefit of the doubt, you know, if somebody has given us that much love and we are in love with them, then that's what happens. We want to reciprocate, we want to fix things, we want to put things right, so therefore, you know, naturally as, you know, kind of decent human beings, we try to, you know,
make the most of a bad situation and because we fall in love with that individual, you know, we tend to kind of go down that slippery slope unfortunately without realising what we're doing. I talk about narcissists a lot because of the fact that it is such a sticky situation and there are multiple ways of identifying narcissists but they're no conclusive, just by asking a question isn't a conclusive.
definitive yes or no and it's not a green or red light, like I say it is very much a spectrum. But you can say certain things, I for example you can see how they're reactive. If you're with a narcissist and they do something or you're with a suspected narcissist and they do something that you know isn't right, all you've got to do is say something along the lines of why did you do that? Normal people don't do that. And watch their reaction to the phrase normal people don't do that because they will be like
You know, it'll drive them absolutely crazy. There are things you can say and do which will trigger a reaction. The only thing you've got to watch is how that reaction then unfolds because sometimes if you push them a bit too far, can, as you know, become very, very violent. yeah, so, so yeah, you know, look for these little things.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (01:08:02.77)
Listen for, especially in a working environment, you know, if you're going out as a couple or you're going out as a work team or something like that, listen for the pronouns they use. So, you know, if you go into a restaurant and they say, we'd love a table for two, you know, we're celebrating our anniversary and, you know, we'd love to sit down and have a three-course meal. It's wee, wee.
If they turn around and they get to the restaurant and say, I'd like a table for two for my wife and I to sit down and I'm going to have the steak while my wife has what she wants. Listen to the, listen to, listen for the word or the letter I, know, is everything I, I, I, I, me, me, me, me, or is it us? Is it, it we are the pronouns they're using? We're here on holiday. We're here on vacation. We had a great time there. We had, you know, just be a bit more serious. And again, this isn't conclusive.
There are people that do use self-focused pronouns because, and again, you usually find it's people like intelligence officers and that kind of thing because they used to being pushed out to go and do a job on their own. And if they are an independent person, and this goes for anybody who is generally an independent person that works at getting the job done without relying on others, they tend to use I and self-focused pronouns.
Whereas team people that are generally working as part of a team or rely on other people, they'll use team focus pronouns like we and us and so on and so forth. know, just, yeah, be aware of it as a potential, but not as a conclusive, you know, but it will definitely help. That is really good advice. And you're right. There is no definitive test. Like you asked this one question and they responded this way and it's absolutely certain. It's more like consistent behaviors over time.
that are very self-serving, very attention seeking, very what's in it for me, not really caring about others. And also, as you rightfully pointed out at the beginning, viewing things like empathy or care or concern as a weakness, not a good part of being human and part of a community and part of a larger social circle, but as actual weakness.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (01:10:19.851)
Again, another great question is to ask somebody, if your suspected narcissistic partner all of a sudden develops a friend or something along those lines, or they meet somebody, ask them what they like about them and listen to the answer because the answer will tell you everything.
If they turn around and say, just like him, he's a happy guy. He's a feel good fellow. There's a good vibe. And we just hit it off and we clicked and blah, Not a problem. If you turn around and say, yeah, what is it you like about him? You go, he's a great guy because he's a mechanic and he can fix my car if it breaks. And, you know, he knows lots of people in town that could introduce me to other influential people that could serve me and be of purpose to me. Then all of a sudden you say, hang on a minute, is he a friend or an asset? Because
You know, yeah. And so, you know, try and figure out how that particular person views somebody. Do they view them as a nice person or do they view them as a tool? And if they view if they view them as a tool, that's when you've got to start again, say, asking yourself little questions and start probing a little bit further. I mean, I could talk about this for hours and hours and hours on the extent of all the different ways that will help.
kind of identify what to look for, what to look for next and bit by bit, you know, it's a bit like a breadcrumb trail, unfortunately, one thing will, you know, reveal another or unveil another until you get to the next. And obviously, I know we're very limited on time, but at the same time, you know, this is something, you know, I could give so much more information on. I'm happy if anybody else wants any help, please reach out to me if you have concerns.
you know, get in touch and if I can't give you the advice myself, I might be at least be able to point you in the right direction. But yeah, sorry, going back to your question. Yes, I did write a book called How to Tell If Someone is Lying, which I kind of went off on a little bit of a tangent there. And that in itself might be useful for some of your followers because deception detection is a big part of narcissistic behavior. there are...
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (01:12:28.693)
parts in the book that will help you to identify that and be able to help you to identify deception. you know, take a look at that, check that out. You know, it might be useful to a lot of your followers, hopefully. I personally can't wait to read it. I'm very excited to read it. And I think it would be incredibly helpful. Even though that I'm out of that relationship, you encounter all kinds of people in your life, you know, and it would be very nice to know, that's a sign that maybe I should just, you know, not a definitive sign that this person is, you know,
narcissistic or just a general liar, but that maybe I should just pay a little bit closer attention to them and my relationship with them. Maybe put up some boundaries, that sort of thing. well, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. I would love to have you back. I learned so much and I'm so thankful for your time. No problem at all. Thank you. It'd be my pleasure to come back again.
