i am Ekho Podcast: 006
Gaslighting and Its Impact on Relationships with J Cangialosi
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Transcript:
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (00:00.024)
Gaslighting is one of the main components, one of the main indicators that you might be in an unhealthy, toxic, slash even abusive relationship. He came back just reeking of alcohol and acting drunk. You were drinking! He swore up and down he was not. I felt horrible about this for days.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (00:25.56)
been a therapist for a little over a decade now, have an extensive background. work a lot with depression, anxiety, change management, life transitions, things of that nature, and some background in couples and relationship work as well. Awesome. That's interesting. So we're going to dive right into talking about narcissism. We're going to start by
Asking you please if you could define narcissism per the DSM five well as with any And I don't like the word disorder, but that's the word that is used in in the DSM but for any disorder you would find As we might know there's a checklist so to speak and in order for any person or any diagnosis to be Deemed here. There would have to be a certain number of those
boxes checked off, right? And so with with narcissism, what we're really looking at is just this general, the word is grandiose, right? And so what does that mean? It just means a large in scale, larger than life, kind of mentality, this exaggerated mentality of self importance. There's a large preoccupation with you kind of being the best, I'm the most successful, I have the
the most power of anybody in this room sort of attitude. We're looking at this belief that this individual really is special, right? Really is unique in some kind of an offset way. So you might not be entitled to the same things I am if I'm the narcissist. And then there's this, the lack of empathy is one of the major markers of narcissistic.
personality disorder, meaning I really do have a difficult time in understanding or even recognizing the feelings or emotions that you might have in response to a particular situation or circumstance. And then there's this general sense of belief that other people should actually be envious.
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of the individual with narcissistic personality disorder. So why wouldn't you be jealous of me kind of an attitude? Yeah, and so those are the main markers of NPD, narcissistic personality disorder. And forgive me because I can't remember the exact number of those criteria that have to be met in order to be...
specifically or definitively diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, but those are some of the main markers that you're looking for. Now, I know you don't treat people with narcissistic personality disorder. You see the sort of people that are affected by narcissistic personality disorder or those sort of traits and behaviors. Do you happen to know, do most people who maybe would qualify for...
or meet the criteria for being diagnosed, do they seek treatment like, or do you think that's an under-reported number? So both. It's under-reported because actually it's oftentimes under-diagnosed. Okay. Cause if we're looking at those personality traits or those, those qualifiers that I just listed off, well, if we have those traits within us, if that person is, you know, kind of going through their life in that way,
why would I need to be treated? Because nothing is wrong with me. So oftentimes, I would say that the research and the statistics that involve narcissism is probably inaccurate, or I should say only as accurate as it can be considering the number of people who are reporting those symptoms.
So if we're gonna see a narcissistic personality disorder come through the therapist door, I would say that the higher frequency is gonna be within maybe a couple's therapy setting, whether with their partner. Or maybe they're mandated by the court to go to some sort of parental counseling or something like that and then it comes out. You're right, but I agree. think that in my experience,
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they don't think there's anything wrong with them. really don't. So they think that it's everybody else. So that's interesting. So you also know a little bit about what it is not, because I know the word is thrown around an awful lot for, you know, just a general jerk or someone who's just kind of mean or grumpy or something like that. And that's it. So what isn't it? Yeah, it isn't being a jerk, actually. And it's kind of funny that you said that.
They have to have specific sort of criteria that meet criteria to be in. And it's not just your everyday jerk that cuts you off in traffic or, or goes through the 10 item checkout with 50 items in their buggy. That is not what a narcissist is. Yeah. Or it's not your, your spouse who is controlling in certain ways. It's not your spouse who is stubborn. It's not your spouse who is, you know, just
like you've said before, generally grumpy in demeanor. There's a lot more to it. Yeah, I agree. Yes, exactly. And thank you for clarifying that. But then you sort of talk about another topic that I find very interesting. And that is areas of narcissistic behavior, which is what you see in your clients whenever they come in and have some sort of relationship problem or being in some way mistreated by their significant others.
So this is most commonly seen when, you know, again, it's the client who comes to me when their partner is displaying these behaviors that can oftentimes, unfortunately, evolve or transform into really toxic or even abusive levels of the relationship. So controlling who they can
talk to or how much time they're able to spend outside of the home or away from the family. Controlling behavior in the sense of who's texting you. Right. Who did you who is that calling you or why are they calling you and where are you going? That kind of controlling behavior. We see it a lot with gaslighting. OK, now I'm to use that word gaslighting and I'm going to really
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clarify here and stress here that gaslighting is one of the main components, one of the main indicators that you might be in an unhealthy, toxic, slash even abusive relationship. So what is gaslighting? Gaslighting is that it's the ability to kind of turn it around, turn it around to the other person, right? And so you might be expressing to me something that you're
you know, maybe that not not that pleased with hey, Jay, I'd like to, you know, I'd like for you to help around the house a little bit more. I really need some support here with everything. And my if I were the narcissistic individual turning that around on to you, well, you don't do this and you don't do that. And you did this the other time. And do remember seven months ago when this happened and that that's essentially gas gas lighting, which
you would then walk away from that interaction with me feeling like, oh, am I kind of off it a little bit? And it's the ability to do that.
With unhealthy toxic relationships, again, even abusive relationships, we're also seeing things such as, well, my needs are more important than your needs. I don't care that you've made plans to do that fundraiser with your special group that you wouldn't working with. I'm having my friends come over and we're going to watch the game or I'm having, you know, I'm doing this instead. And so that's it. Sorry.
not sorry, you know, it's those kind of attitudes. Yeah. You know, that's kind of reminiscent of my own experience. And I, I'm not exactly sure if this is what you're describing, but I'll just share it. And then you can kind of tell me. So, he had a drinking problem and he had assaulted me once physically. He was so drunk. He assaulted me physically. And part of the, reunification process was that he was going to try to stop drinking. He was going to not drink. That did not work, but he would go to AA and he wouldn't drink.
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Now his friends were over our house two, three, four times a month. I mean, I'm sorry, a week, two, three, four times a week, almost like every other day they were at our house. But he would want to go drinking with them. And I would tell him, you know, no, you can't go to the bar because you're promised you wouldn't drink and it's ruining our family. And that is part of our plan is you can't go to the bar. And he would flip that to say, I don't want him to hang out with his friends. Right.
Right. I am controlling him. I don't want him to hang out with his friends where it was like, they'll hang out with your friends at a pizza parlor at the bowling alley anywhere, but just not at the bar because you have a drinking problem. And every time you go, you break your sobriety and drink. Right. So it's exactly that. It's turning the table around onto you. And now all of a sudden you're the controlling person or also you're you're the you're imagining things like
Right? It's that kind of, that kind of mentality. Well, you're imagining things that I have a problem or you're imagining things that, you know, I can't go to this establishment and not participate. So you see the overlap there between the, the narcissistic personality traits and what could eventually evolve, could eventually evolve into an abusive relationship.
You know, and that's another thing is, is you said that you said that was kind of reminiscent of my experiences. Um, you don't trust me. You think I can't do that. Well, what we did whenever he finally admitted that he had the drinking problem and started to get treatment for it is because most of his friends did hang out in sort of bar like environments, he decided, and he, and we kind of came up with the plan that he could go, but he was going to drink soda.
or non-alcoholic beer, which I later learned there is actually, that's not really a good idea if you're trying to not drink to do non-alcoholic beer. I didn't know that at the time. And so the first time we put this plan into place so that he could go out and be with his friends, because I didn't want to isolate him from his social circle. And he came back just reeking of alcohol and acting drunk. And I said to him, you were drinking. And he swore up and down he was not, he had non-alcoholic alcohol, I swear. And then,
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made me feel bad about it to the point where I actually apologized to him for questioning him. I felt horrible about this for days and he gave me kind of the silent treatment because I didn't believe him and I felt really bad about it. But in the back of my head, I kind of thought, was he? he? And so I called the place that he was at and they said, we don't sell non-alcoholic beer. And then whenever I confronted him with it, he
did admit it at least after four days of giving me the silent treatment. And then he, you know, again, it was the, I'll get back into it. I'm sorry. I fell off the wagon. It's so hard being an alcoholic, but for four days I felt like horrible for questioning my partner. Not every individual who might check off the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder is going to become an abusive partner.
or even an unhealthy relationship, right? Or in unhealthy relationship. I'm not gonna say that that's the case. And I can't say the flip side is the case either. It's not that, I'm in an abusive relationship or an unhealthy relationship, therefore they must be a narcissist. So we can't say either is a hundred percent, but we would be remiss if we denied the overlap. So you said, what are some other
Like you say in your patients, see not that you're working with a narcissist, just to clarify again, but in the flip side of it, the person may be in the relationship with someone who has narcissistic traits, at least. You say they have difficulty in relationships. Could you speak a little bit to that? I wouldn't say that probably the most common reason for that difficulty probably does come from that lack of empathy.
Okay. Do you know what I mean? Because if we're looking at a healthy relationship, a healthy, committed or a healthy marriage, right?
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It requires quite a bit of understanding of your partner, of being open to hearing from your partner. Where is your partner coming from? Why is your partner angry about that one particular issue? Without empathy, we don't have the ability to tap into that. And therefore,
the partner in this situation is left kind of going, I don't know how many times or how many ways I can express that I don't like this or that this doesn't work for me. This piece doesn't work for me. And it doesn't matter no matter how many times I try to share that, there's always this, it's typically a defensive response. And so I'm at a loss, right? And so I think when we,
talk about these different personality traits that show up in narcissism, I think that lack of empathy is really the one, is probably one of the bigger ones that's the reason for that impact on relationships. we also mentioned that need for admiration or that need for, know, tell me I'm the best and why kind of a thing, where if,
the other partner falls, I'm going to put it in air quotes, falls short of that simply because they're just, you know, on a, on a typical level or, you know, to again, use air quotes for normal. Cause what is that? But, but, um, you know, they're just going through life doing, you know, the normal admiration, but here's a person who requires a greater level of that. So therefore now all of a sudden you're falling short. Yeah.
Okay, and so now there's some resentment, there's some anger building up, there's a distance that's being wedged further and further because, well, I'm not getting my needs met. Yeah, so that makes sense. Do you think people are born without empathy or do you think it's due to early childhood experiences or is it something totally different or is it all of the above?
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all of the above in my opinion at this time. Yes. You know, right, unless or until I, you know, find out some different, you know, research backed information. I'm still in that camp of, you know, what I learned in the, you know, early years of my education, which is
There's a little bit of nature and a little bit of nurture and it comes together and it creates who we are as individuals. So I would say that there is a certain level that we're just born that way, right? And then some of it has to do with what examples we saw growing up as little kids into our preteen and teen years. Those are all very, very, very formative years. And every single adult
that we come into contact with throughout those years is giving us something, right? And so some of it not so great in certain circumstances, unfortunately. So to answer your question, I'm gonna say it's a good mixture of all of those things. I like how you also said, if you are presented with new evidence as new research is done, better understandings of the brain come out, you'll change your opinion.
And I think that's great. In this moment with what we have, the best evidence we have, this is my professional opinion, but that could change tomorrow if studies come out to show, oh, it has nothing to do with early childhood experiences. It's all determined by, you know, before you were born, it's all biological. So I appreciate that. I appreciate that sort of framework in which you work with. What about the controlling behavior?
What are some examples of controlling behavior you see and how do you differentiate it? Maybe there is no differentiation between someone who just kind of, for instance, when you say like limiting how much they could go with their friends, what is a controlling behavior versus you just have some household responsibilities and I need you to cook dinner once a week? Great question.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (18:50.568)
And you kind of answered it with that. think, so I'm glad that you brought that up because.
There are some responsibilities and there are some things that do need to change when a person transitions from one stage of their life into another. And I often give the example of, it's one thing to become part of a committed relationship. You are a couple. You do have a partner now. And as such, now it's not just you that you're making decisions for.
you know, signing up for the softball league or the bowling league would have been no big deal when you were single or casually dating someone because that's what you want to do now in that committed relationship or in that marriage or watch this once you have the kids, if you have kids, right? All of those different stages change
the dynamics and change the parameters with which that you can go out and do some of those things. so that league, example, that club, for example, that you used to join every year, every season, now you have to think about, what does my partner need as well to have their needs met? What's going on within my household? What is it that I could possibly be neglecting as a result of?
these different things that I was once able to do quite freely. And having that mutual here, Hey, there's that empathy, having that mutual respect, that mutual understanding of what your partner might be going through in your absence. Okay. Versus the situation where you can no longer do your, your hobbies, your self care activities. must be at home. If you're not at work, you're at home.
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And when you are at home, I need to make sure that I can look at the cell phone anytime I want to look at the cell phone. Or if you're on a call, I need to know who it is that you're talking to. Or if you're, you know, spending money, it's only on groceries and the things that, right. So you see the difference between this is a mutual respect thing and considering the other individuals of your household versus you're on lockdown kind of a thing.
That's really important because at least what I found in my relationship is I would be considered controlling if I didn't just let him have free reign basically to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted putting all all the childcare responsibilities to include his shoulder. He had to and I had to on to me and the household obligations and the and everything else on to me. And if I sort of said, you know, no, you know, I don't want you to do that tonight because, I've
dinner for three nights and I need you to help or whatever it might be. Dinner isn't a very good example in my relationship, but whatever it was, it was flipped and maybe this is the gaslighting into you're controlling me. You don't want me to have fun. You don't want me to live my own life. Yes. Yes. So it is definitely the gaslighting thing, but it's also that piece that I mentioned earlier where we talked about the, my needs are more important than your needs. Right. And so
How dare you tell me that I can't go out with my friends and have a social life, but you also can't. so if it's going to be between the two of us, it's better be me who gets the social life. Exactly. It better be me that gets the social life. Yeah. Thank you very much for clarifying that because I hear that all the time from people that read my blog or, you know, they're like, how can I tell if it's controlling behavior versus just sort of basic.
duties, responsibilities you have in your partnership or to your household and to your children and things like that. So that is an excellent explanation. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's going to be coupled with that attitude of, what about me?
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What about me? wait, you want to go do your, your exercise class? Okay. But like, what about me?
versus because there's this other difference here too, where there's this, sometimes it is a very real situation where the partner or an either partner is not able to engage in their own hobbies or their own self care, because there's just so much going on. But that's a completely different
podcast topic. I'd to talk about that sometime, but yeah. Sure. So you also mentioned a strong need for admiration. So could you speak to that a little bit? It's coupled with the grandiosity. Okay. Right. And that word grandiosity or grandiosity can really refer to a lot of different things. Like I'm the best one. As soon as I walk into this room, I'm all of a sudden the best one here. Right. Or
or you might have the really, really hot car, I might have the really, really hot car too, but mine is still better than yours, even though they're exactly the same, right? It's like that kind of grandiosity. And so with that need for admiration is, I think, linked to or parallel to that grandiosity. Well, I'm the best and the most wonderful, and so.
Tell me, give me, yeah, you should believe the same thing, right? Because if it's true, then why aren't you telling me those kinds of things? And anybody who says otherwise, you hey, you're not that special or hey, you know, I've got the same car. Anybody who tells you otherwise is now all of a sudden, you know, in some extreme cases in their mind, now you're a liar.
i am Ekho Podcast Studio (24:59.767)
Mm-hmm, because how could you think otherwise? So you must be lying or you're just I don't have time for you. I don't have I don't have the capacity the space for you anything the energy for you because if you're not gonna see things the way I see them then Okay, bye, you know kind of an attitude do you ever see that their lack their need for excessive admiration also
kind of coincides with them putting down their partner so that they seem higher and their partner seems lower. For instance, telling their partner, you're weird, no one likes you, you don't fit in, you're socially awkward or whatever else. That's a major component of it, yes. So what that does is if the person with the narcissistic personality says those things to their partner, it is,
keeping them on top, right? It's that I've got that level up now, right? Where, so they're kind of automatically doing that for themselves, giving themselves that admiration. But it also keeps, strangely enough, it keeps that individual in relationship with them. See, I'm the only one who puts up with you.
I'm the only one who will accept that about you. Nobody else likes you in that way. And so they start to believe that and go, well, you know, they're not the nicest person or they do tell me this stuff or they do treat me this way, but they live with me. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I remember being told repeatedly, I'm the only person that really knows who you are and still loves you and then loves you. And I was also told even after we broke up, I broke up, you know, and filed for divorce. He wanted us to meet once a month because he thought he was he told me.
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I can give you honest critique and feedback that no one else can give you to help you in your life. To help you grow and improve and... I think if I would have taken him up on that offer, that hour would have been filling my head again with how awkward and weird and antisocial and how nobody likes me. Yeah, well... That's my guess. I don't know. I hope and I'm glad that you didn't take him up on that offer. I thought it was very odd. was a very odd offer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So transitioning a little bit now from sort of what is and is not narcissism, what sort of patterns and behaviors you see in people that tend to have, if not outright narcissistic personality disorder, but sort of those tendencies. Now you actually work with patients who are sort of the victims of this, who have narcissistic partners or partners with these sort of tendencies. Could you tell me a little bit about that experience and
and modalities or therapies to help these people? Comes in a lot of different shapes and sizes. And sometimes we're in this square and other times we're in this other square and sometimes we go back to that square and it could kind of, so in other words, it's nonlinear oftentimes, right? So we're dabbling absolutely in some self-esteem work. Yes. Allowing that
person to really tap into the things, basically to do the opposite of that conversation you just mentioned. You know what I mean? he says this or they say that or she says, okay, but here's what really is true. What really is true is that you're not socially awkward. Or watch this, if you are socially awkward, how cool and unique. Yes, yes.
It's doing a lot of that self-esteem work. I'm the kind of therapist who I dabble in a lot of different modalities, but really my home base is cognitive behavioral therapy. Basically what that means is let's change the way we think about things so that we can begin to change the way we feel. If you're walking through this life thinking that you are this
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know, unlovable, awkward, you know, disgrace of a person because somebody else told you that. Come into my office and let's really learn what is true. And we work a lot on shifting that mentality, seeing things differently, allowing ourselves permission to believe new beliefs.
So now we can feel better about that. So we're dabbling a lot in that kind of work. We're using, well, it's empowerment. Yeah, it is empowerment. You're right. And you're changing the narrative in your head from what they put into your head to one that is more positive and reassuring and helpful to you rather than the negative. You're taking your power back and saying, no, it's not that, it's this.
Like you said, I'm my weird little awkward self and I love it. And I love it. I'm not the status. I don't fit into, you know, I'm not going, I'm not the, the, whatever the norm is. I'm this and that's okay. There's, there's, it's not negative. There's this. Okay. Do you have more experiences you'd want to share working with the clients that do have these sort of partners and you don't obviously, you don't have to give specifics, but. this actually leads to another.
I can't like name the modality, but this actually is another strategy that I tend to use and it's a lot of communication work. Okay. Okay. And it gets tricky when you're just with the individual and not working with them as a couple, but there's still some, there's still some strategies that can be taught and utilized with communication work. Okay. So what that really looks like is
Um, you know, the partner might come to my office because they're distraught over their relationship, not going very well. They're describing these traits and these tendencies of their partner. And they go, so I don't know what to do, Jay. I don't know. I don't know how to, you know, to, to handle this. And so we do a lot of communication work with regard to the approach. Okay. All right. What are some of the approaches? Looking out.
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What ways have you already tried to communicate this concern with your partner? Has it been yelling? Has it been in a moment of like a heated argument? Or have you tried circling back around say, you know, the next morning or the next evening and bringing to your partner, you know, just so that you, I want to kind of touch base on this and, and
really worked this out here. This is how I was feeling and this is what I was trying to relate to you last night. Let's talk about this a little bit more calmly and outside of that heated moment, right? And sometimes the people who I'm working with will, no, I actually haven't tried it that way. No, we've always been yelling and screaming at each other. Okay, so let's use some role play.
let's talk about, right? So let's talk about how you could, sorry, being stable, how you could bring that to your partner in a different, more, or I should say less defensive way. And I talk about coming with an energy of calm, coming with an energy of even kindness, coming with an energy of problem solving, rather than combativeness. And so I think communication,
those kinds of communication strategies help out a lot. The interesting thing about that is sometimes they'll come back to me and it worked. Oh, I finally, you I was able to help my partner understand and they really got where I was coming from and now we're gonna work on, you know, X, Y, Z together. Great. Sometimes they do come back and say, they got defensive, it blew up immediately, here it went and it went in a cycle.
And when that happens now, our conversation about this or our work around this might be a few more sessions, you know, going forward where we're learning about, well, actually I'm learning more about the qualities or the characteristics of the partner. And if I'm realizing, okay, so this person really does not have the capacity to empathize or understand where you're coming from. Now we're going to shift gears a little bit.
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So what would you shift to maybe at that point, whenever you figure out, these more effective means of communicating aren't gonna work with this person because they don't have the ability to empathize and see where you're coming from and be mindful of those needs. To be quite honest with you, Echo, sometimes that conversation needs to become a little bit tougher. Okay. I would be remiss as a therapist if I wasn't...
if I wasn't able to, or if I wasn't willing to share with my clients, this could be a potential reality here. Our ideal, what we would like to see happen is for us to use these strategies and the problems be solved. But sometimes, despite how hard we try, despite the strategies and the tactics that we take, sometimes it might not be solved. And so the tougher conversation I'm having with that client is,
can sometimes become, so what's your threshold? So if any of my clients, yeah, right? If any of my clients are listening to this podcast and they're gonna chuckle when they hear me, I call it a J-ism. A J-ism? Yeah, right? What's your threshold? How far are you willing to allow this to go? How far do you feel capable?
sustaining this kind of a kind of a dynamic. I will never ever, ever, ever tell a person, okay, client, it's time for a divorce. That's never going to come out of my mouth. That threshold question is yours and only yours to answer. I like that. Yes. But you have to be willing to consider it, right? You have to be willing to consider. Well, then what does this mean for me? What is the breaking point? And for me,
It was, to be honest, even after what I would call moderate physical abuse, broken collarbone concussion, I still wanted to go back into that relationship. I think I had what is commonly called a trauma bond, but I still wasn't willing to quite leave it. And then it was only after five months of therapy, after that couple's therapy that I realized it's not going to get better. Like there isn't anything left, you know, and I'm putting myself.
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and danger and others. people do have to think, what is your threshold? And oftentimes I think
When we look back, maybe we let that threshold get too high when we should have cut it off sooner. Right. Right. It's hard when you're in it oftentimes to see that. You know, it's interesting because I think that sometimes and again, for those who are listening, consider this.
there could possibly be two answers to that threshold question. One answer is, could do this all day, right? Like I could sustain a lot. can take on a lot and you probably can, but then there's a secondary answer to that question, which is the want or should, right? Like to quote one of my own clients,
I can do hard things, but I don't want to. Right? And so in some circumstances in our lives, I think it's fair to say, sure, I can sustain a lot, I don't want to, nor should I have to. Yes, nor should I have to. Yes, I like that. And I love how, as any good therapist would, that's the individual's question. What can you sustain and what...
you want to sustain and it's going to be different for different people, the answers to those questions. Exactly. Where would somebody be able to get in contact with your practice if they wanted to? What's the easiest way? Just go to our website, which is reliefmh.com. You'll be able to find us there, find our specific locations. We do offer telehealth services. So if you're looking for therapy, we are able to.
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provide support with telehealth. We have quite an extensive array of different treatment services available. So yeah, our website, reliefmh.com. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate it. And I'd love to have you back. Absolutely. It's been a blast and love to come back and join you for another topic. Give me B.
